Interview by Xavier Bartlett with Virginia Steen-McIntyre
When I learned the sad episode of Hueyatlaco (Valsequillo, Mexico), in which prejudice and dogma passed over scientific evidence, I decided to study it further and write a lengthy article to expound all the details of this case although in fact already had mentioned in my book imperfect history. thus, in 2014 I collected various information and kept electronic correspondence with veteran geologist Virginia Steen-McIntyre, a scientist who lived (and suffered) the consequences of what happened in the Mexican site of very personal way, wanting to keep their principles and professional ethics rather than look elsewhere.
The truth is that this woman gave me a great impression for its serenity, fortitude and zeal, despite having gone through many years of disgrace and ostracism because of their position . Yet, despite his advanced age, he could resume his research in Hueyatlaco in the early 2000s, and has continued to soldier on research, advocacy and dissemination of heterodox positions in prehistory through the Pleistocene Coalition , a group of professionals from different disciplines who do not agree with the tenets of the prevailing paradigm.
In its day I found an interview on the Internet with VSM (in English) and decided to translate and disseminate this blog so readers could get a clearer idea of their employment and their scientific thinking.
Now I am pleased to present a totally new interview I did last year distance 2014 and had not published to date. In this interview, raised as a tribute, I quite focused on revealing the whole issue of Hueyatlaco and its implications, as well as other issues related to dogmatism and intolerance in science. Hopefully someday the name of Virginia Steen-McIntyre is justly recognized and claimed as many other dissident scientists who paid a high price to defend their principles against all odds.
INTERVIEW
Xavier Bartlett : First , thank you very much for your kind attention . In this first part of the interview will talk about the so - called " Saga of Valsequillo " ( in his own words ), an episode that had an impact very negative in his career . By way of introduction , can you explain briefly what was your educational background and how were involved in the excavations of Valsequillo ? What was your role principal there ?
Virginia Steen-McIntyre: I'm a geologist by profession, specifically Tephrochronology (the specialist studying the layers of ash and pumice volcanic) . I obtained my degree in the Augustana College in Rock Island, Illinois (1959 ). After a few years working in the oil and gas , I enrolled in graduate school at the State University of Washington , Pullman . It was there I got into archeology , the volcanoes , and layers of volcanic ash a combination fascinating ! in an excavation I attended identified often d you ample layers of ash volcanic in the strata visible s on the walls of the tasting of archaeologists , one of about 7,000 years old and the other about 12,000 years. Any artifact found in the layers sandwiched between these two layers had to be older than 7,000 years more recent than 12,000 years. This was thus a practical and economic to date about the artifacts, long as antiquity knew the layers of tephra (ash volcanic) with which it was dealing with . I started studying these two layers of ash with a microscope , and I used the results to get my degree in geology, specialization in pedology [1] (1965 ).
XB : Hueyatlaco was another excavation normal a site prehistoric until that some datings of the Barranca Caulapán throws rum some figures unexpected ( around 22,000 BP ) of the objects made by man related to the bones . What happened then?
VSM : The yacimient or of Caulapán was really small: just found in situ a flake of stone modified by man (yes, in a layer of sediment , not on the surface ) associated with a vertebra of proboscidio and some shells. the shells were dated by the method of C - 14 and the bone by uranium series, a technique that was then used in Africa for deposits of early humans. the dates of C- 14 and of uranium series "agreed pretty well , " around 22,000 years . the academic establishment d and no way would accept the scant evidence of a flake stone to pass these dates as old . La Barranca Caulapán ended at the shore north of the reservoir Valsequillo , and a few kilometers away along the coast the were other four sites without dating , including Hueyatlaco , which was covered by one layer sedimentary thick and more modern ( including the layers of tephra ). These deposit s would be acceptable , long as they could be dated !
XB : Anyway, in 1968, new and amazing datings obtained through the method of series of uranium from samples of Hueyatlaco and El Horno showed that the site could be 250,000 years . Old What was the reaction of Cynthia Irwin-Williams? And what happened to the rest of the academic community ?
VSM : Barney Szabo , the same colleague who had dated artifact Caulapan, also dated the deposits Hueyatlaco and El Horno, in Valsequillo , but turned out to be more than ten times older! R eacción Cynthia was shock and disbelief . In fact , that is how the rest of the team members felt . We think that the methods of uranium series Barney Szabo did not work on samples of reservoir Valsequillo, but not we could use the excuse that the old bones somehow had been re deposited in the reservoir . the sample of Hueyatlaco , taken from sedimentary layers that contain tools bifacial , was part of a camel quartered, and the sample of El Horno , of one cap to (oldest) lower sedimentary , was a fragment of tooth of a mastodon descuartiz ado . Cynthia made known to his colleagues that such dates were "impossible".
XB: On the other hand , something very unpleasant happened there in that s moments . The Mr. Lorenzo ( director of INAH in Mexico ) accused the archaeologists buried deliberately the artifact s that were found in the strata of gravel , and even sent police to obtain confessions of the workers . What was, in your opinion, the ultimate reason for this attitude?
VSM : Remember that I only was a student graduate at that time , so I was not aware of the
conversations original . From what I heard second - hand , it is that it was envy. When Professor Lorenzo did not like the Yankees or the capitalists , nor had great respect for women archeologists . and the fact that professor Juan Armenta Camacho , colleague Cynthia and discovered the original of these ancient sites in the area Valsequillo, was just an amateur archaeologist and was more than his ego could accept.
XB : Why do Cynthia Irwin Williams never published all the material on Hueyatlaco ? Why do we have now very little information about the excavations and any artifact?
VSM : Is d odorous admit it , but Cynthia refused to publish their material on Hueyatlaco and the other deposits until geologists who had dated the sediments in Hueyatlaco desdijésemos us from our datings, which we could not do in good conscience . Decades after his death and after a long struggle , we did get published in our online article on the debate stratigraphic in Hueyatlaco [3] . Both Malde and VanLandingham are now dead . And there is an interesting video about the problem : "Suppressed: New Evidence of Early Man" available at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYWznEIV50 . So far the video has had nearly a million hits (Dec 2015), and 1,277,277 views as at September 2016.
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We have the molds of the artifacts that made the mother Cynthia , Kay Irwin . They are stored in the Museum Smithsonian in Washington DC . We have pictures and drawings . As for the own artifacts original, see end of saw deo to know its whereabouts ! They were piled helter-skelter in boxes with thousands of other artifacts and deposited in a warehouse without signaling after the building in which they were stored originally proves destroyed by an earthquake.
XB : What happened to his career after 1973 ? Do you think that s or professional reputation was destroyed because of their position staff on the datings ?
VSM : I was so innocent ! Thought that if one had the truth, there was more to do! The data is examined and contrasted in detail, and if held, were accepted finally .¡J to! Geologists Hal Malde and Roald Fryxell presented evidence of our datings of deposit of Hueyatlaco at a national meeting of the Geological Society of America in Dallas , while I was on my way par to give a talk in New Zealand (1973 ). the results had reached news agencies while I was in the plane, and they caused a stir. So much so that gave a talk further about the site at meetings of New Zealand with the audience full . But that was the highlight of my career . I expected to hear from various colleagues in the form of questions about our work , but it happened all otherwise . my correspondence fell sharply . my letters research not they were answered . I lost my job at the USGS (for nepotism , as suddenly discovered .) they spent several years after the death of Roald Fryxell in an accident car until it Hal Malde and I got finally that the information on Hueyatlaco came to the press (in the journal Quaternary Research, 1981) . There was no discussion . I did not say anything to the face . Suddenly I became a " non-person".
XB : How do you explain that dating officer Hueyatlaco ( about 20,000 years BP) could be set according to an article published in National Geographic , while the dates obtained by the USGS was n completely ignored ?
VSM : It 's simple: No unca contacted us . Apparently, Cynthia gave them to interview and resorted to dating with which he felt comfortable.
XB : The various absolute dating methods applied in Hueyatlaco have yielded results well over 20,000 years old, which invalidates conventional theories on the human population of the Americas . However, there is a big difference between the more moderate and more radical datings, hundreds of thousands of years. How would you explain these differences and what you grant reliability of radiometric dating methods?
VSM : If you read our article of 1981 in Quaternary Research ( Steen - McIntyre, Malde , Fryxell , v.16 , pp . 1-17 ) will all tests we use , both dating methods absolute as other methods to achieve our conclusions . None of the evidence we found would target dates recent to the site. the clincher came much later , after 2000 , when the late Diatomist (Consulting Environmentalist/Geologist) Sam VanLandingham found diatoms in the sediments of Hueyatlaco and its surroundings , many identified as pre-glacial period of Wisconsin or even earlier; in any case IDs post-glacial times were given.
XB : The team led by independent researcher Marshall Payn could not obtain permits excavation between 2005 and 2010 and then , in 2011 , it was found that the site had been heavily altered by the construction of a large house surrounded by walls , so there was almost nothing to ex dig . What do you think about these facts ?
VSM : " Something is rotten in the kingdom of Denmark" And the official Mexican who could have cleared up the mystery was found dead of a heart attack when the archaeologist Neil Steede was flying to Mexico City to interview .
XB : After all these years , do you think that such datings extreme not only questioned the orthodox theory of the population of the New World , but the whole theory about human evolution? It was this issue specific cause of all the problems experienced by some of the people involved in Hueyatlaco ?
VSM : Yes . They put at risk Darwinian evolution. It is assumed that any humanoid creature was smart enough to reach the New World makes a quarter of a million years , or to develop tools bifacial , or to make beautiful artworks . but that's what the tests demonstrate in Hueyatlaco , at least before all " disappeared" and that the site was destroyed . One of the po reasons r which I became a member founder of the Pleistocene Coalition and editor of the newsletter Pleistocene Coalition News is because there are plenty of other enclave s ancient New World , as well as researchers malcontents who can not provide their data to the public as they call into question the dogma established . the newsletter attempts to rectify this situation.
XB : In view of everything that happened in Hueyatlaco , do you think that this case was an episode of manipulation , of suppression or concealment deliberate ? Do you think that the INAH was the only party responsible for the whole thing ? Would you use the word conspiracy in the scientific environment ?
VSM : probably . the three factors the main players are almost all dead , and "I was just a graduate student" , so I can not speak with authority . I've heard rumors that senior government officials of both sides of our southern border they were involved , and that Hueyatlaco is just the tip of the iceberg .
XB : In the second part of the interview will address various topics on archeology , geology and science in general . Apart from Hueyatlaco , there are other sites archeological not known that may indicate that human settlement in the Americas are very old. What can you tell us about these findings?
VSM : There are many . Here we must recognize the work of Michael Cremo and the late Richard Thompson, who sought between dusty records of libraries and archives to unearth a large number of them . Their findings were published in his book 1993 Forbidden Archaeology ( " Archaeology Forbidden") . Also in the newsletter Pleistocene Coalition News, you just celebrate five years of deliveries, they mentioned several more of these sites.
XB : Although there are many clues and evidence that can prove that several people from different parts of the world came to America before Columbus in the fifteenth century , academia refuses to admit these contacts overseas . Why
VSM : Good question ! I myself have me inquire or several times , but find no answer. Do you know the book World Trade and Biological Exchanges Before 1492? ( "World trade and biological exchanges before 1492") of Sorenson and Johannessen, 2009? The cover shows the statue of one goddess of a temple Hindu holding a corncob (a plant New World! )
XB : Although much of the archaeological practice rests on foundations geology , the geology which supposedly is one science hard - it is ignored when not provide the expected results . Do you know the controversy about dating geological Great Sphinx in charge Robert Schoch ? Archaeologists rejected such fech as simply because " it was impossible" because it had not identified any " civilization" in that remote time . What do you think of this?
VSM : Yes , I know the work of Dr. Schoch . It seems that the Great Sphinx was modified due to water erosion . Very interesting! I try to use a concept called "Multiple Working Hypotheses " ( MHT) to address these issues . That 's what geologists use (or should use! ) C hen face problems that can not be resolved in the laboratory .
We can use the origin of life from non - life example. With the approach MHT try to consider as many ways as are possible to get from point A to point B : in this case, from non - life to life . This is the time when we let the imagination is fired , without taboos . The macroevolution Darwinist , the breath of a star, the clay animated , whatever, everything will be considered with equal possibility. Then you take out all these hypotheses and test yourself against the new facts that are appearing . Some will agree with the facts, others do not. you leave aside those that do not comply (but not you exclude completely) and add new hypotheses as they come to mind , and keep trying .
All this having always in mind that you probably do not have the answer correct - or even the answer that comes closest to the answer correctly on your list of hypotheses compliant. [This method] nor can guarantee that it can lobby the correct answer , but it is a way of thinking that frees the mind from the limitations usually is . Thus it is allowed, and even be encouraged , to think openly.
XB : We have said that you belong to an entity called Pleistocene Coalition ( " Coalition Pleistocene") , which does not share the orthodox views on human origins and evolution. Please tell us something about the work and the objectives of this initiative.
VSM : The Pleistocene Coalition was founded five years ago years by a group of scientists , engineers and researchers malcontents who could not provide their data to the public through the normal channels , since question some dogmas established; for example: " Modern humans are intelligent, the cavemen were fools." So we created a newsletter on-line , the Pleistocene Coalition News , to bring to light the facts scientists . It 's free , and we are all volunteers . In this publication you will find articles that certainly will not see in your morning paper !
XB : Do you think that the theory of evolution has become a religious dogma that can not be discussed or criticized even though they have to deal with the lack of evidence or to evidence contrary ?
VSM : I think that's obvious .
XB: Do you think you that the confrontation between evolutionists and creationists fundamentalists ( religious) is a false controversy ? In other words , could be a way to put aside scientific theories such as design intelligent ?
VSM : Yes . What often hear about evolutionary question their own assumptions ? Where is the proof that what they believe is true ?
XB: the researcher alternative Michael Cremo believes that evolution is totally wrong and that the origin of man , as described in the scriptures Vedic , must go back many millions of years . What do you think about this approach mythological ?
VSM : My own beliefs are those of a charismatic Christian [4] . M is visions of the world and of Michael are far apart . But we worked for years and are good friends . As a scientist , this is another case where I would use the multiple working hypotheses (MHT) to think of this type of things .
XB : Some leading scientists actually consider that science today is indeed a bad science because it is perverted by prejudices ideological and interests of all kinds ( economic, in particular) . Do you share this view ?
VSM: I have certainly had one personal experience with this bias , like many members of the Coalition Pleistocene . I am glad that we are able to convey some of our information to the public . We are most well as lots of Davids facing Goliath!
XB : In these days , many people around the world no longer rely on policy , finance or religions, but has a blind faith in the empirical science as something " objective" and " good", because of their training and to the influence of the media. in addition , people often think that there is a broad consensus among the scientists on the issues major , but this is not true , as we can see clearly , for example, in the controversial debate over global warming anthropogenic . What would you say to people after their experience at this point ?
VSM : I speak now from a Christian background : " human beings are all fallen creatures , imperfect. Treat others with respect and love , but cuestiónate and continues cuestionándote ideas come from any source. "
XB : In your opinion , why the current science , dominated by the ideology materialistic - reductionist, rejects any vision related to consciousness? Did you know that the British archaeologist Tom Lethbridge was heavily criticized and ridiculed for research in the field of the paranormal ?
VSM : At materialistic - reductionist them scares the paranormal . It is something they can not control .
XB : Thank you for your time and dedication to this interview . Any comment end that want to express to readers?
VSM : I think I've said more than enough !
END OF INTERVIEW
[1] The science that studies soils.
[2] Refers to the site of Clovis, New Mexico (USA)
[3] See : Malde, Harold E. , Steen - McIntyre, Virginia ,
Naeser , Charles W. and VanLandingham , Sam L. 2011. The debate stratigraphy in Hueyatlaco , Valsequillo ,
Mexico Palaeontologia Electronica Vol 14 ,
Issue 3 , 44A . . 26P ;
paleo-electronica.org/2011_3/27_malde/index.html.
[4] This Christian movement emphasizes the religious experience from a personal point of view. However, it is clear that Steen-McIntyre has never mixed his beliefs with his scientific activity itself.
source: https://laotracaradelpasado.blogspot.com.au/2015/12/virginia-steen-mcintyre-la-lucha-de-una.html
